Curse

DreamWind · Feb 28, 2007, 05:02 AM // 05:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

And both don't see, or won't see, that we're serving both communities very, very well, and that this jockeying for "favorite" position, this claim that they are being "ignored" or "pushed aside" or in some other way mistreated is simply inaccurate and is totally unfair to the company, the game, or to the community itself.

It is interesting that you say this actually. I am one of the people who think the article was perfectly fine and unoffensive. But I think the emotions that stirred up over the article here and on other forums really brought to light the division between the PvE and PvP community. It is something that is basically undeniable now.

GloryFox · Feb 28, 2007, 05:05 AM // 05:05

Quote:

posted by Gaile Gray
Sorry, I can't sympathize. In any community with two diverse groups, you're going to get charges of favoritism, and complete, unwitting, and utterly unacceptable comments like "You don't do anything for [my type of gameplay]!!!" while I can give you chapter and verse that we do, in spades, and often.

PvP players complain: Why do you have events?
PvE players complain: Why are you testing HA?
And sometimes, they refuse to see what we're doing for their interests because they're focused on what we're doing for "the other side."

And both don't see, or won't see, that we're serving both communities very, very well, and that this jockeying for "favorite" position, this claim that they are being "ignored" or "pushed aside" or in some other way mistreated is simply inaccurate and is totally unfair to the company, the game, or to the community itself.

You correct right now ANET can't and until the community can come together it will get worse and become more polarized especially with this tripe being posted on an ANET website. I don't know what the answer is to bring the community together but I sincerely miss the early days of GW and the days of non-existing emotes. I hope an answer comes soon. If I can make a suggestion Gaile please look at the root causes for PvE player base to not get as involved with PvP play. If ANET can solve that mystery I don't think you will see the polarization in the forums anymore.

BTW... PvE players always welcome PvP players into thier fold in PvE missions. It would be good to see the same from PvP players.

Str0b0 · Feb 28, 2007, 05:17 AM // 05:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Sorry, I can't sympathize. In any community with two diverse groups, you're going to get charges of favoritism, and complete, unwitting, and utterly unacceptable comments like "You don't do anything for [my type of gameplay]!!!" while I can give you chapter and verse that we do, in spades, and often.

PvP players complain: Why do you have events?
PvE players complain: Why are you testing HA?
And sometimes, they refuse to see what we're doing for their interests because they're focused on what we're doing for "the other side."

And both don't see, or won't see, that we're serving both communities very, very well, and that this jockeying for "favorite" position, this claim that they are being "ignored" or "pushed aside" or in some other way mistreated is simply inaccurate and is totally unfair to the company, the game, or to the community itself.

This isn't a matter of favoritism. This is a matter of recognizing a simple fact of the community your company is responsible for creating. There is PvE and there is PvP and those are the polar ends of the gameplay spectrum and the two seldom mix. The tension has been there for quite some time and I know you and the other staffers have a presence on this and other forums. How could you not have recognized that this would be a problem? I honestly gave you guys a lot of credit but I've worked in your world and I know a corporate script when I hear one. Rather than owning up to your lack of foresight You're straddling the fence, afraid to do anything more than token gestures for fear of offending either side too greatly, and the reason for this is because you don't play favorites. You can however be fair and in all fairness you had to have known this wasn't going to go over well. I'm not insinuating you're a member of the editorial staff responsible for green lighting this, but I assumed you were our go between. This was an error of policy and it's going to be raw until it is satisfactorily addressed.

Priest Of Sin · Feb 28, 2007, 05:20 AM // 05:20

Actually... I don't let rank 3+ into my groups. He's spent way too much time with Spikes and Pressure in HA for me to give a damn about what he can do in this mission. He can go screw himself, because he will be way too reliant on the whole team. Correct me if i'm wrong?

SCENARIO: my Alliance leader (rank 11 nublet) decided to come along with us in FoW. He single-handedly caused 7 near-wipes because he wanted the monks (and only the monks) to heal him. We tried explaining that we had him pack 3 Earth Prayers skills for a REASON, but he would not listen. He was then flabbergasted that the monk was using rebirth so that we could continue. His exact words were "Wow, our monk sucks. Why did I die? LEARN TO INFUSE... so we starting over? Wtf, why does he have a rez?"

-sigh- PvP turns the mind into goo. (jk)

@ the people yelling at Gaile, don't do that. She's nice! <3 Gaile. She's doing her best to explain their thinking behind the article, she doesn't deserve to be treated like dung. Just because the internet is anonymous, you do not have the right to be a frigging jackass.

VitisVinifera · Feb 28, 2007, 05:24 AM // 05:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Str0b0

This isn't a matter of favoritism. This is a matter of recognizing a simple fact of the community your company is responsible for creating. There is PvE and there is PvP and those are the polar ends of the gameplay spectrum and the two seldom mix. The tension has been there for quite some time and I know you and the other staffers have a presence on this and other forums. How could you not have recognized that this would be a problem? I honestly gave you guys a lot of credit but I've worked in your world and I know a corporate script when I hear one. Rather than owning up to your lack of foresight You're straddling the fence, afraid to do anything more than token gestures for fear of offending either side too greatly, and the reason for this is because you don't play favorites. You can however be fair and in all fairness you had to have known this wasn't going to go over well. I'm not insinuating you're a member of the editorial staff responsible for green lighting this, but I assumed you were our go between. This was an error of policy and it's going to be raw until it is satisfactorily addressed.

excellent post, Strobo -- you really cut through the fluff to get to the core issue. As long as anet nerfs a skill because it's seemingly unbalanced on one side, it adverseley affects the other side, and resentment is created. Throw on top of that the pvp controlling access to a pve area (uw/fissure), and more is created (there is a very interesting, and lengthy thread in this forum about that). Gaile claims that one side will always complain whenever something is done for one side or against the other, when in reality this division was created long ago purposefully by anet by trying to split resources between the two.

This division starts at the very first screen you see when you create a character: roleplaying or pvp.

edit: and one more thing, Gaile......retreating from the raw nerve that was hit with the posted article because it wasn't by a paid employee is weaksauce. If it's on the GW site, it represents GW.

Priest Of Sin · Feb 28, 2007, 05:30 AM // 05:30

I don't recall PvPers complaining about PvE nerfs. They're just very different nerfs, you see. In PvE, things are determined by brute force usually, with very little tactics involved. So, we get things dumbed down (minions, aggro, AI).

In PvP, it's all tactical (except spikes, the lowest form of PvP). When something is nerfed in PvP, the complete skill is reworked. (Spiritual Pain) Some skills are rightfully nerfed, and it cannot be helped that PvE feels the squeeze.

arcanemacabre · Feb 28, 2007, 05:40 AM // 05:40

So... I'm gonna back off commenting further, because Str0b0 is pretty much hitting the nail on the head. I'll just let him speak for myself, lol.

I'm holding to what I said earlier, though, that you guys (Anet) are doing a really good job with both sides (PvP & PvE). The problem, as Str0b0 points out, is that there is a separation there to begin with, and instead of embracing that fact, you guys (Anet, again) continuously keep trying to glue the two sides together.

Just face it, because of the way the game is designed, there are two main groups in the community, and neither can really get along.

But yeah, take it from here, Str0b0.

gone · Feb 28, 2007, 05:53 AM // 05:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Priest Of Sin

@ the people yelling at Gaile, don't do that. She's nice! <3 Gaile. She's doing her best to explain their thinking behind the article, she doesn't deserve to be treated like dung. Just because the internet is anonymous, you do not have the right to be a frigging jackass.

since she(gaile) started posting here, not one person "yelled" at her. lmao they would be perma-banned quicker than you could say mod-brutality..

according to gaile, it is an opinion of a writer, and for her to try and explain someone else's opinion is frivolous, because it is -their- opinion.

the net isn't as anonymous as one might think -lol

DIH49 · Feb 28, 2007, 05:57 AM // 05:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fossa

Have you evenr played PvE?

I have 10 PvE characters fully through their respective chapters. Many have gone through two or even all three. They all have multiple elites capped and several suits of armor. I helped alpha test ch3 PvE and completed most of it before the chapter was even released. In short, yes, I have.

Quote:

Because from your post it seems that you're saying that PvE is PvP light. It's a totally different game, if you try a PvP build and tactics in PvE you'd most likely fail. Miserably.

Actually you do amazingly well. When everyone was crying over THK, we ran IWAY straight from tombs and got so bored we had to camp their spawn points. But that's not the point I was making, I was talking about skill selection. In builds you choose the skills most effective, that's how flavors get formed. Since PvE is far more forgiving than PvP, many more skills flourish. Unfortunately PvErs often try to take those skills into PvP, which is not forgiving at all. It's a simple application of natural selection.

Quote:

Rebirth could possibly be one of the best situational res spells there is in PvE.

This is a perfect example of what I'm talking about.

GloryFox · Feb 28, 2007, 06:03 AM // 06:03

Quote:

@ the people yelling at Gaile, don't do that. She's nice! <3 Gaile. She's doing her best to explain their thinking behind the article, she doesn't deserve to be treated like dung. Just because the internet is anonymous, you do not have the right to be a frigging jackass.

I agree even if I disagree with the "State of the Game". Gaile nothing I write is intended to insult you in any way. You do us PvP or PvE a good service and you have a hard role to play. My thoughts and posts are constructive criticism of the situation at hand and are in no way personal. However I stand by my opinions and statements and I also agree with Str0b0 and the posts of many other veteran PvE players in this forum. That "State of the Game" post was not worthy of ANET posting it.

FoxBat · Feb 28, 2007, 06:07 AM // 06:07

While I get why many may be offended or annoyed at the extremely basic mistakes this article addresses, If you really believe "this is stuff *everyone* knows" then you A) never PuG in PvE and B) Never play RA/AB/Aspenwood. Mending wammos I see constantly, feigned/IW mesmers that try to play tank are popping up in RA (though I wouldn't have singled this out, it's more pvp-viable than PvE), and there are plenty of noob monks bringing rebirth into PvP and breeze anywhere. There are people who need to read this article, though I'm not sure how many of them actually will.

dgb · Feb 28, 2007, 06:19 AM // 06:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fossa

Have you evenr played PvE? Because from your post it seems that you're saying that PvE is PvP light. It's a totally different game, if you try a PvP build and tactics in PvE you'd most likely fail. Miserably.
Rebirth could possibly be one of the best situational res spells there is in PvE.

2.8 cartographer titles says that I've played a lot of PVE. All of it was done with PVP builds (in fact I just loaded them onto my heroes from my pre-existing templates) and I blitzed through PVE faster than I've ever seen a PUG do it.

A (PVE only) friend asked me to help him do Gates of Madness, I came along, looked at his and his heroes builds, asked him to change them to what are essentially PVP builds with some minor tweaks, used the same PVP builds on my heroes and myself and smacked Shiro into oblivion.

The moral of this story is that PVE is *easier* when you use PVP builds, because PVP builds don't take garbage skills. I've held the view for a long time now that the thing that makes PVE difficult for the average player is their own retarded builds, not the game design. If they used PVP setups this wouldn't ahppen...

EDIT: And Rebirth is horrible, it essentially says "I accept that there is a high chance that we will catastrophically party wipe". Instead of accepting that, I just don't suck and don't party wipe...

manitoba1073 · Feb 28, 2007, 06:27 AM // 06:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

2.8 cartographer titles says that I've played a lot of PVE. All of it was done with PVP builds (in fact I just loaded them onto my heroes from my pre-existing templates) and I blitzed through PVE faster than I've ever seen a PUG do it.

A (PVE only) friend asked me to help him do Gates of Madness, I came along, looked at his and his heroes builds, asked him to change them to what are essentially PVP builds with some minor tweaks, used the same PVP builds on my heroes and myself and smacked Shiro into oblivion.

The moral of this story is that PVE is *easier* when you use PVP builds, because PVP builds don't take garbage skills. I've held the view for a long time now that the thing that makes PVE difficult for the average player is their own retarded builds, not the game design. If they used PVP setups this wouldn't ahppen...

EDIT: And Rebirth is horrible, it essentially says "I accept that there is a high chance that we will catastrophically party wipe". Instead of accepting that, I just don't suck and don't party wipe...

lol 2 things made me really laugh here along with the rest of this post of yours

1. 2.8 cart titles say you played alot of PvE hahahahahahaha
2. so exactly how do you rez your dead members of your party then. just leave them there.

lightblade · Feb 28, 2007, 06:30 AM // 06:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

... Mending sucks in PvE too.
...

Why does all the 55 use mending again?

GloryFox · Feb 28, 2007, 06:33 AM // 06:33

Quote:

posted by dgb
PVP builds don't take garbage skills.

When will the pain and laughter end?

So this explains why there are so many Mending Whammos and Monks in RA, and TA?

Another prime example of a PvP mindset in regards to PvE players. And we wonder why are polarized.

Yup not taking rebirth into DoA is a bad idea acceding to your post. See how long you survive without it there.

jayce · Feb 28, 2007, 06:33 AM // 06:33

it is clear to me that ArenaNet designed Guild Wars to focus purely on PVP, yet there are way more people who actually PVE. this article is undoubtedly an attempt to get more people into PVP. its just that the author forgot that he was sitting at a 'Round Table'.

i understand the intended focus of the game.
i also understand where the bulk of people play (PVP or PVE).
what i don't understand is why would Anet even pretend to play with people's emotions by 1) allowing that article in its current state on the website in the first place, 2) leaving it there after the people (bulk of players) did not think that it was funny.

i have to agree with what Str0b0 has posted. i couldn't have said even close to the way he discribed it. but i sure was thinking the exact same thing that he was. i also think that Gaile should stay out of this one. i like her, but her last few post didn't sit too well with me. Anet now knows that there is a problem with the article. i just hope that Anet do not treat this like a petition in Sardelac Sanitarium.

Jayce Of Underworld

dgb · Feb 28, 2007, 06:34 AM // 06:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by manitoba1073

lol 2 things made me really laugh here along with the rest of this post of yours

1. 2.8 cart titles say you played alot of PvE hahahahahahaha
2. so exactly how do you rez your dead members of your party then. just leave them there.

1. So what exactly is your measure of how much PVE one has played? I'm trying to provide an indication here - otherwise everyone would just come up and say "you have no PVE experience".
2. It's called Res Chant. You use it in the battle, the thing that dies gets up, smacks the thing that killed it and then you move on.

Chris Blackstar · Feb 28, 2007, 06:34 AM // 06:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Sorry, I can't sympathize. In any community with two diverse groups, you're going to get charges of favoritism, and complete, unwitting, and utterly unacceptable comments like "You don't do anything for [my type of gameplay]!!!" while I can give you chapter and verse that we do, in spades, and often.

PvP players complain: Why do you have events?
PvE players complain: Why are you testing HA?
And sometimes, they refuse to see what we're doing for their interests because they're focused on what we're doing for "the other side."

And both don't see, or won't see, that we're serving both communities very, very well, and that this jockeying for "favorite" position, this claim that they are being "ignored" or "pushed aside" or in some other way mistreated is simply inaccurate and is totally unfair to the company, the game, or to the community itself.

The fact that you responded to our concern is fair enough to show that you at least care about the situation at hand, but the rift is still there. Now how to bridge that rift, well I don't see it happening because both PvP and PvE players are in a pissing contest, an no way is Anet going to satify one group with out pissing off the other. In all honesty any player with any rank does not prove nothing as part of game play, I am only R1 because I don't play HA much, however I am still called a noob by PvP players out side of my guild who are R6 or above, however 1v1 and I defeat them hands down, why? Because rank means nothing in this game, all it shows that you are a grinder of fame, and is not extent on your abllity to PvP.

You want to explain the concepts of PvP vers PvE, it's simple, they are both the same, it requires team work, communication, orginization, and thinking out side the box, using tactics and stragities to best defeat your opponents. Add all that together with plenty of practice, and I can bet any type of team build can go far in any PvP area.

gone · Feb 28, 2007, 06:42 AM // 06:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

1. So what exactly is your measure of how much PVE one has played?

Protector titles help.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

2. It's called Res Chant. You use it in the battle, the thing that dies gets up, smacks the thing that killed it and then you move on.

--Spell. Resurrect target party member with up to your current health and 5...29% Energy. This spell has half the normal range.

Rebirth lets a smart carrier who sees a wipe coming, run, break aggro, and rez from a nice SAFE distance. (if it comes to that lol)

dgb · Feb 28, 2007, 06:45 AM // 06:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by GloryFox

So this explains why there are so many Mending Whammos and Monks in RA, and TA?

If you're going to take for an example the trash brought by everyone in RA as an example of a PVP build, you're an idiot. There was an obvious implied comment that I was reffering to tested, proven PVP builds. Feel free to continue being obtuse though...

Quote:

Originally Posted by GloryFox

Another prime example of a PvP mindset in regards to PvE players. And we wonder why are polarized.

Ok, do an experiment. Go out, get a PUG in a normal PVE area. See how many *clearly* bad skills there are. The last time I did it, I was watching Precision Shot, Dwarven Battle Stance, Blood Bond to name three being used. Until the majority of the PVE community starts rejecting bad skills and running proven, efficient builds I'm going to hold to my view. Next time I'm on I'll go find a PUG and see what they are using... Maybe I'll see Counterattack this time!

Actually, save yourself the time and just look through the PVE build forums here...

Quote:

Originally Posted by GloryFox

Yup not taking rebirth into DoA is a bad idea acceding to your post. See how long you survive without it there.

It was meant as a general comment but whatever pleases you...